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From dogothunder/Tim (6,886) on January 25, 2012 1:26:30 PM CST NOT all Red Thumb critiques are negative critiques. If a critic gives valid, relevant thoughts and ideas towards a photo, I don't care if it's 3TD, 2TD, 1TD, 1TU, 2TU, or 3TU. I wouldn't care if there was a 1000TD, if the words in the critique match the rating and the tone of the critique is not condescending...it would not be a negative critique. Why can't people simply get that through their head? If you only post your best of your best here and you don't want constructive criticism, then you don't belong here. Go to a gallery site or create your own. However, if you're posting photos that you know you need help with, then why get so damn cranky when someone points out that the particular shot you post is flawed? Grow some thicker skin, listen to what you're being told, determine what, if any of the advice given is something you'll consider, and learn something. Sheesh. :) Reply

From jroessler/John (14,146) on January 25, 2012 2:17:05 PM CST I agree with you completely in theory, but have to acknowledge that TDs cause me a little - heartburn. I wish I was really totally adult about this and could separate my feelings from my rational side. Reply

From ssal/Alex (27,282) on January 25, 2012 7:00:07 PM CST No matter how you try to rationalize it, red thumbs are negative because it DEDUCTS points from your bank. People just don't take negativity well. That's why there is more disputes arising from red thumbs. You can say all kind of meaningless thing and give a thumb up and you'll be rated "Helpful". But if you give a red thumb and say a lot of valid points, you will have a much higher chance of getting "Unhelpful" return and something even worse. I had a guy following me around and rated my critique "Unhelpful" to retaliate. There is a good chance that the Admin may jump in. I have no problem with someone, including the Admin, jumping in. But the irony is that it never happens if you give TU. So, red thumb not only was looked at by the receiver as negative, the Admin obviously is policing red thumb conversation as well. I actually think the negative point is counter productive. We should be able to critique a picture and not causing the photographer to lose point. If a picture gets thumb up's, give them points. But if the picture is uninspired, uninterested or has major flaws, let's hear it, but no points deducted. I think that can alleviate the negativity associated with red thumbs. This is in no way an accusation of you Sheena. Just expressing my observation and opinion. Reply

From tvernuccio/Sheila (37,104) on January 26, 2012 1:10:00 AM CST hi Alex, I'm sure there are some people who care about losing the points when they get a red thumb; however, losing a few points doesn't mean anything to me because I'm gaining insight and feedback on my photo which is so much more meaningful and important than points. But that's just me. :) Reply

From lurchi/Ulrich (61,241) on January 26, 2012 9:44:05 AM CST You can call a deaf person "acoustically challenged" but that won't make them hear. In other words: A failed photo is what it is, and painting the red thumbs pink or light blue (that is: avoiding the negative points) will not change the need for the photographer to accept that. The basic problem is the need to accept a flaw as such, and that will always challenge photographers as some aren't ready to accept "negative critique" as an effort to help their improvement. If you'd cut the negative points they would hate you for not adding more points. As long as evaluation is referring to some sort of scale the lower grades will be unpopular. The red, the negative points and sometimes the lack of applause is a sting. But isn't that part of what makes us want to learn and get better? Admins jumping in might have to do more with the amount of controversial discussion on a shot; at least that would be my guess. They can't check everything but for sure they do check the "hot photos" page frequently, especially those on top of the page with a low overall rating. Reply

From muralist0221/George (7,883) on January 26, 2012 11:13:55 AM CST Agreed! Many times I've produced work which was substandard. Go back to the drawing board and reshoot (when possible)! The real value of this site is that critics can give specific corrections for the do over. Reply

From karin2007/Karin (19,607) on January 25, 2012 1:49:52 PM CST I did get quite a few red TD critiques so far - I must admit, its not a pleasant feeling at first when you see a TD critique attached to one of your photos - but honestly, some of those TD critiques were the most helpful ones of all - real eye openers and I remember all of them till now - and when going out to take photos, they come back to my mind, like: watch the bg, get rid of distracting elements, decide what's your main subject, watch the lighting, the sky is too bland ect. etc - Without TD critiques I would not have learned so much here on pSIG Reply

From baba/David (38,576) on January 25, 2012 1:58:26 PM CST Probably underutilized, but many get deleted so we don't know the actual truth. To many people, it stings to get one, but maybe the reality check is a good thing. The definition needs to be reworked for the 1 red thumb rating. I have personally red thumbed a lot of my own photos before I submit them to the site, so I don't submit them. Reply

From swilcox/Steve (10,298) on January 25, 2012 3:02:44 PM CST "The definition needs to be reworked for the 1 red thumb rating." That has always bothered me also. At the very least, the word "uninspired" should be changed to "uninspiring." Most pictures are inspired; people have some inspiration to point the camera and snap the shutter. However, many pictures are uninspiring to the viewer. This happens when the photographer fails to convey the inspiring view through the medium. Reply

From sheenawilkie/Administrator (0) on January 25, 2012 3:15:09 PM CST I think the problem is people don't understand what uninspired means. The rating "uninspired and uninteresting" refers to the photograph. We are not rating the photographer, or their efforts. The photographer may have been inspired but the photograph is uninspired. Uninspired means the photograph is "lacking in imagination or originality, not exciting, lacking in creativity" I think that pretty much describes most one thumb down photographs. Reply

From baba/David (38,576) on January 26, 2012 5:48:47 AM CST I wish there was the addition of "seriously technically flawed" to separate it from irredeemingly flawed. Reply

From iostream/Dean (4,398) on January 26, 2012 6:59:35 AM CST Maybe the solution to this is to ignore the 'irredeemably' bit. 'Seriously flawed' is serious enough. In practical terms, it's the lowest rating you can give - I only give out -3 when people post stolen photos. Reply

From sheenawilkie/Administrator (0) on January 26, 2012 8:27:54 AM CST Why? They both mean the same thing. Reply

From baba/David (38,576) on January 26, 2012 10:40:40 AM CST But in the single red thumb critique, there is no overt definition with regards to technical flaws unlike the other ratings. It is more about perception of the impact of the image. I usually have to make a run around in my critique to feel justified giving it. Reply

From swilcox/Steve (10,298) on January 26, 2012 7:22:07 AM CST You're right -- I didn't know the dictionary definition. I was assuming a literal definition. More red thumbs from me now! Reply

From rgordley/Rich (6,983) on January 25, 2012 2:00:55 PM CST It's a question of what do we want a critique to be. Do we want it to be a tool by which we seek to improve? If so telling me that crap is a cupcake does no good at all. Or do we want it to be the equivalent of your mom taking your three year old artistic effort and saying "that's wonderful honey, I'll hang it on the refrigerator."? In which case let's just preset all critiques to three TU. The difference is between acting like a responsible adult and acting like a three year old. Reply

From dogothunder/Tim (6,886) on January 25, 2012 8:45:38 PM CST There are a lot of three year olds on this site, which in and of itself is a violation of the TOS. :) Reply

From lurchi/Ulrich (61,241) on January 25, 2012 2:14:01 PM CST I realised the best chances that critical feedback is well received and staying is wrapping it in a 1TU rating. However I'm giving out red thumbs frequently, simply to stay in touch with the ratings' definitions given - and with my own scale. Surprisingly, my experiences aren't that bad - well, let's say mixed: TD critiques have a strange tendency to "disappear" - together with the shot; those that stay become a considerably higher score of "helpful" ratings (though I suspect many of them mean "I agree" rather than "helpful"); when I had troubles with other members it usually was following a TD rating of mine; I do have an eye on abusive "unhelpful" ratings (only the minority coming from the photographers themselves BTW) and confront the according members with the rules via link or SIG mail though, just to keep the house clean; sometimes I'm surprised by the open and constructive appreciation of a TD critique coming from the photographer; the perception of constructive (I believe) yet TD critique differs according to the cultural background, what may seem like friendly bluntness to me might be understood as harsh or embarrassing by others. It seems like many Asian and Oriental cultures do differ in their scale of critical expression, but even the Americas seem to require more sugar coating compared to my own needs. This is a mostly useless generalisation except for the consequence that I'm trying to express my thoughts on other's shots more gentle and respectful than I would comment on my own stuff. I strongly believe we do need the full range of positive and negative ratings since I've understood I'm learning by making mistakes rather than friendliness that keeps me from developing a sense of flaws. On the other hand I know that encouragement is essential. A negative critique in my eyes is not a TD critique but one that is either not given - or meanigless. I would trade 3 friendly yet harmless TU crits I've got for one constructive review that comes with a red thumb. Reply

From swilcox/Steve (10,298) on January 25, 2012 3:11:25 PM CST ... and times have changed since several years ago when a flood of 3 thumbs and a "Wow" were equivalent to applause. I remember getting criticized for a well explained one-thumb, and a red thumb was almost always taken as an insult. I guess things are better today. Reply

From jroessler/John (14,146) on January 25, 2012 2:20:12 PM CST Most of the time - most of the good photographers at Psig accept a TD with good comments and are glad to get them. I really get irked with persons who rate critiques unhelpful; especially without understanding what unhelpful really means. Reply

From wolli/Ian (56,879) on January 26, 2012 1:00:32 AM CST Yes, especially the "drive by" clickers who click unhelpful but fail to leave a comment or crit. It's easy to click but harder to think. Reply

From iostream/Dean (4,398) on January 25, 2012 3:18:08 PM CST I'm freer with the red thumbs than most people on here, and there are problems with them. I find myself avoiding writing crits on images that I think are boring or flawed just because I don't want to deal with the butthurt. This is even though as Ulrich notes, I generally tend to get a lot of usefuls on my TD crits. I think this happens because I'm in effect saying something that many people are thinking, but won't write down because of the aforementioned butthurt factor. The BH factor is strong - I've seen examples of photographers who hand out red thumbs themselves giving 'not usefuls' to red thumbs they receive. I believe that people deal with this in two ways: 1 only writing crits on what they consider good photos and 2 boosting their ratings and making any photo, no matter how bad, a minimum of +1, thus their scale is +1 to +3. Reply

From istanbullu811/Istanbullu (6,411) on January 25, 2012 3:50:38 PM CST receiving TD really breaks the energy... i think instead of the colour of critique, its content, what it is saying in photographic way is what i care ... i have one -2TD which was one the most helpful critique i received... it was brave and including quiet helpful technical corrections in a motivative language... Regards! Reply

From iostream/Dean (4,398) on January 26, 2012 7:03:06 AM CST As someone who writes red thumb critiques frequently, I can tell you that they are carefully written. As others in this thread have said, you never have to justify green thumbs. People are happy accepting whatever mindless fluff you want to write. But as soon as the thumb is red you'd better have all your reasons laid out. As Alex said, I have never had an admin intervene on the aftermath of a green thumb critique. It happens only on reds. And yes, you are right, generally I learn a lot from a well-written red thumb. Reply

From delano1997/Ceasar (700) on January 25, 2012 6:26:06 PM CST A TD critique can be valid if provided with tangible comments and suggestions relevant to craftmanship, creativity and composition. I feel that if a critiques fails to address the essentials of an image then the writer missed the mark and if they gice a TD then they are doubly wrong! Reply

From robertwallis/Robert (12,866) on January 25, 2012 9:36:25 PM CST I've seen where many photographers are reluctant to leave red thumb crits for fear of retaliation or for fear of the controversy. If the crit is written in a little detail explaining, as it should, what the issues are; then there should be no problem. Comparatively recently, I've been doing more 2TD and 1TD crits than I have in a long time. The last 6 pages of crits I've done have a total of 26 red thumbs crits I've left behind. A couple of people disgreed with the crits and left unhelpfuls, but the response has surprised me with the agreement. Most of the crits are 2TD and only a few are 1TD. I've left explanations about the difference, stating that the red thumb ratings aren't linear as I would be more concerned about a shot being boring, bland, and uninspired (1TD) than I would about about a screwed up technical issue that leaves the image fatally flawed (2TD). From my viewpoint, I'm still learning about photography after 50 years of involvement with it, and soft peddling an image with problems is the last thing I want to see and hear. I don't post to share, I post to find out if it works and if it doesn't; why not? If something is weird and sucky, tell me why it's weird and sucky and what can I do to fix it? Don't dismiss it as bad, I already had an idea it was and need feedback and help, not simple confirmation that it sucks. Reply

From wolli/Ian (56,879) on January 26, 2012 1:05:37 AM CST I agree that people often fail to see that 2TD can mean "good idea but you stuffed up" whereas 1TD means "why did you bother to take this boring photo". Reply

From baba/David (38,576) on January 26, 2012 5:54:32 AM CST I don't think you ever want to give a strong impression like "why did you take this picture" in a written critique, but rather explain why you find it uninteresting and what might have been done to add more impact. Reply

From wolli/Ian (56,879) on January 26, 2012 4:26:08 PM CST I didn't say that's the way the crit should read - i was summarising briefly what the ratings can MEAN. I was explaining why 2TD can be a "better" rating than 1TD. Reply

From baba/David (38,576) on January 26, 2012 4:28:05 PM CST Sorry, it just brought memories of critiques I have seen which basically said exactly that from other members. Reply

From wolli/Ian (56,879) on January 26, 2012 5:15:05 PM CST No problems David. Reply

From sheenawilkie/Administrator (0) on January 26, 2012 8:30:16 AM CST The challenge of the critic is to look for what the photographer saw but failed to express. I cannot think of a more un-constructive thing to say than "why did you bother to take this photo". I'd report a judge for that kind of comment. Reply

From wolli/Ian (56,879) on January 26, 2012 4:27:29 PM CST Read again. That's not what I said. Reply

From tvernuccio/Sheila (37,104) on January 26, 2012 1:05:35 AM CST Red thumbs aren't a negative thing to me. I'm always very grateful to get feedback on my photos, and if my photo comes across as boring/uninspiring/uninteresting, or severely flawed, I want to know. I don't get upset because my photo was rated red. Don't misunderstand me. I don't want to take pictures that are boring or severely flawed; however, I want honest feedback on my pictures so if I do take some crappy pictures, I want to know about it. Getting a red thumb is a positive thing because I'm getting honest, critical feedback on my photo. In addition, if I know someone finds my photo boring or severely flawed, I can then use that information to hopefully take a better picture next time. Reply

From loiswakeman/Lois (16,398) on January 26, 2012 6:45:32 AM CST Anyone who takes the number of red thumbs into more account that the words that accompany them is missing out on the real value of the site; pity them. As Karin said, a red thumb can be like a bucket of cold water when you first get it, but on mature reflection, a real pointer to how to improve. My beef with the definitions of the red thumbs is that they are not on a scale of bad to really bad as one might reasonably infer, but address three totally different aspects of the photo: inspiration, technicality, and obscenity. Still, I know they won't be changed until Moses gets a new set of tablets, so... Reply

From sheenawilkie/Administrator (0) on January 26, 2012 8:54:56 AM CST I think (when time permits) we'll develop an FAQ with some additional descriptors and a fuller definition of the ratings. Clearly some people have a different understanding than the dictionary meaning of some of these words. We've been successful in educating people about the use of the helpful/unhelpful rating by having a guidelines to link to. We can do the same with the photo ratings. Reply

From lurchi/Ulrich (61,241) on January 26, 2012 9:45:46 AM CST That sounds like a good idea. (x) Helpful Reply

From silverball/Sean (1,262) on January 26, 2012 10:28:11 AM CST TD's suck. Even though we have the thick skin, yadda, yadda. The goal is 3TU photos every time we squeeze the shutter button. I started my morning with a photo that I knew was flawed and posted it anyway knowing that I could receive [and use] some feedback and likely receive a couple TD's. As expected my rating went down a little but I got some good advice. All in all, a successful submission! Now, every once in a while, you think you've really nailed a shot. This is when the TD's hurt. Expecting at least a few 2TD's from the "cherry pickers" trying to get the triple bonus sometimes leaves you a little surprised when you log in to find out you've tanked. Finally... the worst of all. No crit's! Having a photo that doesn't get any crit's at all is brutal. Go ahead and talk about how you need thick skin and perhaps somehow you should learn from this(?) or something, I'm not feeling it. I'd feel a lot better if my efforts had at least moved someone enough to explain to me why my work sucked! Reply

From baba/David (38,576) on January 26, 2012 3:14:07 PM CST Who are these 2 thumbs down cherry pickers? Reply

From baba/David (38,576) on January 26, 2012 3:14:53 PM CST If your photo doesn't get the amount of critiquing you think it deserves you can always ask for critiques in this forum. Reply

From silverball/Sean (1,262) on January 26, 2012 5:05:32 PM CST Good point David, I'll do that... I never even thought of asking for feedback. Reply

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