I would like to ask for opinions on what members here feel they like and dislike in the photo critiques they receive. I am NOT talking about the ratings. I am talking about the words. What do you find useful and what does not really interest you or help you very much in your opinion. I know the temptation here may be to state simply what you do not like in a critique but I am really interested in knowing what you find useful and helpful as well. Thanks in advance.

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From tvernuccio/Sheila (37,104) on June 22, 2008 11:57:25 PM CDT One thing that comes to mind, Mauro, is something that Sheena recently mentioned...the "because statement." It really does help when folks elaborate. For example, while I appreciate hearing from critics that my composition might be balanced/unbalanced, it's so much more helpful when they also tell me why they find my photo to be balanced/unbalanced. I understand that sometimes it's difficult to articulate that "because" but it certainly is useful if the critic is able to do so. I also like it when critics tell me how my photos affect them on an emotional level...or if it doesn't reach them them emotionally, that's helpful for me to know also. It helps me to know if critics find my pictures interesting or not, and when they can tell me what it is that makes the photo interesting (or not), that helps me even more. Reply

From sigmamagic/Renee (102) on March 11, 2009 6:03:00 PM CDT Sheila, I totaly agree _ If my image reaches someone on the emotional level then I've gotten the shot - the tech stuff - Helps me to improve it - BUT - Nice shot - great shot - congrats - & all of those false comments, do nothing for me - I post images sometimes that I know need to be sharper - and yet no one catches it - or - I could have exposed differently for a better shot - But we get what we get It depends on who's in here the day your image posts and once it does - it's gone and lost in the piles of photos from days gone by So, if you visit my images, Please be honest and tell me how to improve it - that's what will make us all better photographers - It's not just a place to post photos for everyone to see thats why I joined - great point whoever started it Reply

From loiswakeman/Lois (16,438) on June 23, 2008 4:19:49 AM CDT Like: Emotional/personal reactions to the subject, rather than technical stuff, which I can usually work out for myself. That to me is the chief benefit of a critique: getting a less subjective view of the subject, as it's so hard to disassociate the result from the process of taking the image. Dislikes: Positive ratings followed by a list of different things I should've included in/excluded from the image, which implies a 2TD rating for me. Meaningless generic stuff that coold apply to almost any image in the same genre (though to be honest my few submissions rarely attract those nowadays, rather the main page habituées.) Example of latter from main page recently (anonymised to spare blushes or incite action) hello x, this is wonderful shot of small beautiful bird. very well done shot congratulations. z Hi x, This is a perfect y shot. Wonderful composition. I like the sharpness and very smooth background. Good timing. Thanks for sharing. z Excellent shot x! The bird is in perfect focus and I like the soft background. Nothing bad to say at all. z Hi x! Nice nice i realy like this shot .. the focus is great! Well done! PS. Sorry for my english :) Reply

From mikereid/Mike (3,505) on July 8, 2008 11:35:49 AM CDT danm, i just wrote one like that! :-) Reply

From deleted24315/deleted (9,800) on June 23, 2008 4:48:05 AM CDT Absolutely nothing that anyone says about any of my photos means a damned thing to me. Reply

From deleted185/deleted (31,640) on June 23, 2008 5:53:29 AM CDT You are kidding...even a little, right? :-) Reply

From marshall/Marshall (11,954) on June 23, 2008 7:39:16 AM CDT I'm not sure he is, but it does beg the question "Why post them on a critique site?" Reply

From wdeon/Wayne (8,931) on June 23, 2008 7:59:15 AM CDT This is coming from a guy (Alibaby).... who deleted all his photos at least once;) Reply

From deleted24315/deleted (9,800) on June 23, 2008 10:07:58 PM CDT No. I don't kid. Reply

From deleted185/deleted (31,640) on June 24, 2008 4:37:25 AM CDT OK. Reply

From deleted185/deleted (31,640) on June 23, 2008 5:52:56 AM CDT For me and my photography, the moment captured is more important than the technical perfection. I love when a critic 'gets it' in seeing what I saw and appreciate when the comments are geared toward the aesthetics rather than the suggestion that it coulod be cropped 3cm from the top and 2cm on the right. I don't like when a critic makes suggestions to the point of completely changing the photo into what they want rather than what the photographer presented. :-) Reply

From facewithered/Puchong (9,650) on June 23, 2008 8:01:47 AM CDT I agree with you, Charles. Reply

From baba/David (38,576) on June 23, 2008 8:30:08 AM CDT Isn't this just a more "softened" version of what Gary stated? Critics make suggestions that appeal to their aesthetics. I could just as easily ask you if you don't want comments on cropping or anything else that changes your vision substantially, then why submit? If the answer is that you want to see how many other members share your vision and "get it", then maybe we should allow Gary the same courtesy? Reply

From deleted185/deleted (31,640) on June 23, 2008 9:04:42 AM CDT No, I don't think this is even close to what Gary stated. Every critique that is sincere has some merit, but the OP was curious to know our likes and dislikes about a critique, so I gave him mine. How is that a softened version of I don't give a damn what anyone thinks? Reply

From baba/David (38,576) on June 23, 2008 9:20:34 AM CDT I don't like when a critic makes suggestions to the point of completely changing the photo into what they want rather than what the photographer presented. I probably read to much into that statement. I just find it hard for a critic to know when they have crossed that line with an individual member when there are hundreds of individual members with different levels of proficiency on this site. Reply

From deleted185/deleted (31,640) on June 23, 2008 10:07:00 AM CDT I was probably too vague, as well. Writing critiques is toush, accepting them just as tough. :-) Reply

From facewithered/Puchong (9,650) on June 23, 2008 8:01:21 AM CDT Likes: I like the critiques where critics read the original design of the photographer or that they come near. This means they read every elements in a picture and in some cases they need to look through one's portfolio to understand it better, and try to be the author's side. By doing this, they could, at least, answer lots of whys in one's photos for themselves. And I like the critiques where I find something new to me, something I could not expected to hear from other critics. It could lead to defects or things positive. Dislikes: Sorry, there is none that could come into this category for me. Everything or every word of other critics are appreciated by their watching and at least typing some words for my photos consuming their own precious time and brainstorming. What is really aching for me is when I find nothing special or attracting in one's portfolio to return a critique. Reply

From karin2007/Karin (19,610) on June 23, 2008 8:37:38 AM CDT Likes: Technical advice, both on how to improve taking a photo and about postprocessing, I also think it is great when the critic has a careful look at my photo and points out flaws, like: there is is shadow in the left corner, the horizon is slightly tilted, there is something that could be cloned out etc. I always appreciate when somebody expresses his/her opinion about my photo, it is always interesting to find out how somebody else sees my image Dislikes: There is hardly anything I dislike, as long as the critique is worded in a polite manner. The only thing that I really dislike is, when receiving a "retailiation" critique, when somebody downrates a photo of mine, just because he/she disagreed about a critique of mine - but that fortunately only happened once Reply

From wdeon/Wayne (8,931) on June 23, 2008 9:12:16 AM CDT I like that someone actually took time to write something about my photo. I like if someone who has experience with the genre I am posting writes to help me improve based on their experience. Actually, Iike it when anyone writes something that is useful to me. Saying that they like the photo is helpful, though can be a little short on information as to why. I understand that there are varying levels of experience, English language skills, and critique writing skills, especially when new to critiquing or moving out of one's comfort zone. I sift through the whole of the critiques and pick and choose the pieces that are relevant to me. Everyone is different in how they experience critiques. Although I do hope for critiques from specific people at times, I take away what I can from the critiques as a whole. Reply

From iostream/Dean (4,398) on June 23, 2008 9:18:52 AM CDT Like: Any time someone actually looks at an image. They may like it, they may dislike it, but I appreciate any time someone takes the time to actually look critically at one of my images. Reasons why. Why does the image work? Why doesn't it work? Suggestions. I'm not one of those who thinks he knows everything and that any suggestion is equivalent to the critic saying that I don't know what I'm doing. Often, a suggestion will indicate what the critic has in mind, and that can be valuable in determining how to use the information in the critique. An actual critique. I am lucky, I think I get more actual critiques than most Psigers do, maybe because people look through my crits and see that I'm not afraid to say what I really think. The majority of critiques on here, as on any similar site, are fluff, and I think I get more non-fluff than most people. If the rating is red, some suggestion as to what will make it un-red. Again, this can be helpful in determining where to go with the critique. If the rating is green, some mention of why it is green. After all, a 1TU is a good photo according to the rating system. Dislikes: Flufftiques. Critiques that don't say anything. Most of the time what is said could be said about almost any photo. 3TU when I know it's not a 3TU shot. Revenge crits. Crits left because I left a 1 or 2 TD on one of theirs. It's just so childish. And they never say anything useful, because they're written from the point of view of finding something, anything, negative to say. Reply

From iostream/Dean (4,398) on June 23, 2008 9:27:14 AM CDT Oh, I forgot one thing. One thing I hate. One thing that has no place in any critique, ever, anywhere. Thank you for sharing. I am not sharing. I am submitting a photograph for critical evaluation. There is a vast difference. Reply

From apeture/Eugene (2,146) on June 23, 2008 10:22:12 AM CDT Reply to iostream/Dean You're correct; there is a difference between SHARING and CRITICAL EVALUATION. Critical evaluation is the primary reason we submit photographs, but wanting others to see our photos is another important reason. Seeing photos by others means sharing, in my opinion. When people say, THANK YOU FOR SHARING, I think they mean thank you for letting us see the result of your efforts to make a good photograph. Comments welcome. Reply

From sheenawilkie/Administrator (0) on June 23, 2008 10:25:25 AM CDT Do they need to say it on every photograph? It comes across as trite and meaningless when repeated ad nauseum. Reply

From timrux/Timothy (1,286) on June 23, 2008 11:13:16 AM CDT Here is the perfect critique, from what I've just read (entire thread)..."The lighting is perfect, DOF is spot on, and the colors are wonderful. Couldn't be better." and it is exactly 15 words. We are not robots, we are all unuique individuals with different likes and different ways to communicate our feelings of happiness or disgust. Why not take the crit, no matter what it says, or even, what it doesn't say with a grain of salt. There are many different levels of photographers here and many many more differences in how intellectual we are, so if someone says "great shot".....take it for what it's worth, they think it's a "great shot." Reply

From sheenawilkie/Administrator (0) on June 23, 2008 11:16:04 AM CDT You talkin' to me? Reply

From timrux/Timothy (1,286) on June 23, 2008 11:19:37 AM CDT LOL, I just hit the reply button, guess it was the wrong reply button......But, if the shoe fits I guess. Reply

From timrux/Timothy (1,286) on June 23, 2008 11:20:40 AM CDT Actually I meant....After I read the entire thread. Reply

From sheenawilkie/Administrator (0) on June 23, 2008 11:29:54 AM CDT Why not take the crit, no matter what it says, or even, what it doesn't say with a grain of salt. Because we aspire to be better than that. There are plenty of sites out there who are satisfied with the great shot please see mine kinds of comments. photoSIG wants to be a critique site, one where people are giving thoughtful considered opinions, based on the photograph. Reply

From timrux/Timothy (1,286) on June 23, 2008 11:44:52 AM CDT My point is that, not everyone has a big vocabulary and giving a thoughtful critique, in their mind, is "Great picture, cool colors, and .....thanks for sharing." <-----I've said that lol. But anyways, my point I guess is to take the good with the bad. I am not the best one to write a critique worthy of praise, but I am learning, slowly, but surely. Reply

From marshall/Marshall (11,954) on June 23, 2008 12:39:08 PM CDT I think the point here isn't to denigrate the "semi-critique", which I think of as an opinion shared honestly. To suggest that we can also have better, deeper critiques doesn't mean that all other critiques are worthless. Reply

From booksbikespics/Kevin (8,557) on June 23, 2008 2:51:40 PM CDT I guess I'm one of those people who concludes most critiques with "thank you for sharing." My thinking has been that I appreciate what I learn from each photo that has been shared, and then from the critiques written. Sharing a photo opens it up for critique, from me and others, and gives me a learning opportunity. So I say thanks. I also say thanks because I learn so much about the world from the photos people share. I hadn't thought of it as becoming trite when it's used a lot, but I see the point - I guess kind of the PhotoSIG equivalent of "best regards." I guess I will need to find more varied and creative ways to close. Best regards :) Kevin Reply

From facewithered/Puchong (9,650) on June 23, 2008 11:22:11 PM CDT I agree with you, Kevin. I also think of "thank you for sharing" as a respect for the sharers. Reply

From marshall/Marshall (11,954) on June 23, 2008 12:42:39 PM CDT Tell me *why* you think what you do and I'll appreciate the critique. This is basically the same as Sheena's desire for "because" in critiques. Saying what your opinion is is a great start. Thinking about why you hold it and sharing that gives the photographer an opportunity to understand and connect it to what s/he is trying to do. Reply

From timrux/Timothy (1,286) on June 23, 2008 1:10:37 PM CDT Maybe it's up to the seasoned vets to start hammering us newbies. If you see a critique that is fair game.."Great Shot....'here's 3TU's for nothing'", add a comment to the bottom of the critique asking, "What is it in the picture that deserves 3TU?" Marshall, in your first critique, or what I am taking to be your first critique, on April 29, 2002 was explanatory, in depth, and showed real interest in the photo. Not everyone comes to Photosig with the gift of observation and writing skills to write what you see, more importantly, what you like and dislike in a photo. The photo you critiqued had a rating of 684! In the year or so that I have been involved with Photosig, I think the highest I have saw a rating go is 35. 11 makes the main page, as I inadvertently proved today. Maybe there are too many cameras, and too little photographers, and everyone trying to have their work seen at once? Whatever it is, the critiques have slowly dwindled off, and I think the vets can rekindle it. Start kicking the newbies, myself included, in the arse, I'm a big boy, I can take it. Reply

From marshall/Marshall (11,954) on June 23, 2008 1:47:46 PM CDT Heh. I'm impressed that you dug back to my first critique 6 years ago. I'm not sure that I'd give some of the same ratings that I did then, but I have always tried to be at least somewhat thoughtful. As for your other point, I think there's a risk to having people start taking on the role of kicking critics around, whether deserved or not, and whehter well-intentioned or not. The risk is that people respond differently - tone is tough online - and the result would be more work for a small number of admins. I agree with you in concept, but practical implementation of that encouragement is a bit of a challenge. Reply

From timrux/Timothy (1,286) on June 23, 2008 3:16:56 PM CDT If there is not enough Admins to police the site, maybe they should enlist the help of some "Core" moderators to help. Someone that has at least five years in the Photosig community, besides being fair and just. Even put a little icon next to the name letting others in the community know that they do have the right to ask questions (in a nice way that is). Just a suggestion. Sorry, but working from home affords me a lot of time to brainstorm....... Reply

From log/Louise (27,206) on June 23, 2008 7:58:01 PM CDT "The photo you critiqued had a rating of 684!" Did you actually look at most of the other "critiques" on that photo? Reply

From timrux/Timothy (1,286) on June 23, 2008 9:58:22 PM CDT Yes, regretfully I did...Great, Great, followed by more Greats.......and a couple of Cools...I guess this is kinda what this whole thread boils down to. It is just history reliving itself, just in a little different way. But, there were more people involved just 6 years ago even with one word critiques that stuck. Reply

From jmcmahon/Jeff (2,359) on June 23, 2008 4:23:41 PM CDT - I am pleased to get every critique I get.  However, I have come to realize that receiving no critiques is very much a critique in its own way.  When I go back and ask myself (objectively) why no one felt compelled to critique I can usually answer the question.  - I feel the application of the old golden rule needs to be at work here.  If the person critiquing addresses those points that they would personally feel beneficial, then they have probably done a good job.  [Obviously a photograph for a more experienced photographer calls for an approach on a different level than for an obvious newbie] - I appreciate critiques that address both the technical as well as esthetic aspects.  In adition I want to hear what I did right and what I should improve on both accounts.  Be cold and brutal but be genuine about it.  Reply

From mauro1/Mauro (11,510) on June 23, 2008 6:36:59 PM CDT Thanks again everyone for providing your input on this one. There seems to be a consistent thread regarding a desire for providing an explaination for observations made in a critique and to a lesser extent providing suggestions. Reply

From kirsib/Kirsi (139) on June 24, 2008 11:49:52 PM CDT After reading this thread I'm thinking why there is so few opinions out there for not so great photos? I was so grateful for any advice I got and now I feel like I'm telling what I think but older members are not interested unless it is a great photo to start up with. Reply

From mauro1/Mauro (11,510) on June 25, 2008 9:04:55 AM CDT I am not sure if I understand what you are trying to say Kirsi. I posted this discussion to better understand what other members like and dislike about the critiques they get. I know what I look for in a good critique but I wanted other opinions. I do not think that the older members here have expressed an opinion that they will only critique photos that are great to start up with. I have read some of your critiques. You are doing a great job. Cheers, Mauro. Reply

From mikereid/Mike (3,505) on July 8, 2008 11:37:45 AM CDT i dislike being ignored! Reply

From nakamichi/Nathaniel (1,491) on July 8, 2008 11:52:39 PM CDT Hi Folks: I'm new to the site and have been writing critiques based on a few assumptions, perhaps quite silly ones, and also adding Thanks and, Thanks for posting, to my critiques. Here are some of my assumptions: I truly value folks posting their images. I know they post because they want to, and they want the critique, but it still takes courage for folks to embark on a very personal creative process and then put themselves "out there" for critique. I think I should definitely thank folks for taking the time to do so. I also value the opportunity to get nitpicky with images, to look at them deeply and not necessarily critique for technique all the time, nor fall for the cliche critique. Perhaps a fault of mine is that I find good in most things, or seek it. I want to praise the good, not just point out flaws, so my critiques also look for potential, for strengths, and for that in the process/creative output that is a "promisory note" for continued growth, learning, insight. My critical voice might come out a bit soft at times because I might choose to err on that side. Another assumption is that I should post critiques for those images that have no critiques yet. From what I gather, folks might try to game the system by writing critiques only of new images so that they can garner more points. Not my interest at all, but I came in thinking, that those who post would love to see somebody pay attention to their images quickly and seriously. I need to start looking far deeper here. I have not posted any images, but from previous experience -- - I like critiques that are thorough in explaining why a person feels the way they do about an image. - I like critiques where the critic recognizes and is very aware that this craft, art, passion, vision, and so forth is not about perfection, but about developing further creative insight and mastery. - I like critiques where I get the feeling that the critic has my best interests at heart -- that is, they truly want to critique so that the poster has the opportunity to grow and learn. - I also value a critic that does not think/assume that they are perfect, no matter how good they are. - I definitely value critiques that demonstrate deep observation, and not just about technical minutiae -- indeed, this is important -- that recognize that different images, although technically "imperfect" can be quite fine, and that there is, consequently, not a one-size-fits-all way/critique. - I appreciate it when critics take the time to understand the parameters (contextual, conceptual, aesthetic, etc.) of the work (as best they can). I perhaps most value rigorous engagement with the work being critiqued. What don't I like? Well, the reverse of the above I guess, although I tend to be quite easy going on these things. I do not like mean, unjust, unfair, and criticism that reveals an attitude of "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen." I've been a coach, and I'm a teacher (and a teacher of criticism) and I've learned that certain attitudes don't teach well at all (also that people learn in different ways and that highlighting good things is important). I believe that a critic does not have to say everything that is wrong with an image. Sometimes a critic might do best by focusing on a few aspects that can help the most. A bit long, but I wanted to write it for myself as well. Do I do all the things in my photography that I say in my critiques? Far, far from it! But I try, and I enjoy the process, and I learn lots and that's what matters. Critiquing for me is always looking deeply with a "beginner's mind" so that I learn and use the critique process as a way to develop insight myself. I look forward to conversations, critiques, and further learning. NK Reply

From mauro1/Mauro (11,510) on July 9, 2008 11:41:36 AM CDT Thank-you for your thorough reply Nathaniel. You raised a lot of good points and it is always nice to see someone fairly new to the site diving right in and starting to write some very good critiques. Cheers, Mauro. Reply

From rkriggs/Kevin (10,467) on July 13, 2008 12:12:17 PM CDT I am so grateful for any critique at all; my photograph's generally do not draw much attention, so I feel a real surge of emotion just because someone noticed my image. I appreciate chess7/Charles's dislike of critiquers telling him how they would have taken his photo. But I have a different perspective on the issue: I need that and appreciate it when I get it. When I scan the new photos, looking for something to critique, I'm also looking for photos I could have taken. Where I need the most help is learning how to see: learning how to recognize opportunities to photograph. So when someone tells me "you should have taken it this way", I sometimes feel like I've been given a nugget of gold. In general, I like critiques that share knowledge (technical and aesthetic) and that show a thoughtful response to my work. The less thought the critiquer gives, the less I value the critique. I dislike critiques that simply state dislikes; I believe every criticism should be balanced with explanations or suggestions for how to avoid mistakes next time. Kevin Reply

From mauro1/Mauro (11,510) on July 15, 2008 7:58:46 AM CDT I think your reply highlights how important it is to remember that there is no one best way to write a critique. There are certainly some commonalities but we all have different personalities and experiences and learn best in different ways. But as you pointed out, if the critic shows a genuine thoughtful response to the photo there will always be something that can be learned from the dialog. Cheers, Mauro. Reply

From dextr/Jeff (842) on July 14, 2008 12:39:00 PM CDT What I like most: a critique that tells me something I didn't already know (or suspected but wasn't willing to admit). This might be a purely technical point, or it might be an interpretation I hadn't foreseen or don't agree with. Also, a thoughtful critique that agrees with my own thoughts about the photo is still helpful as a confirmation. Of course, a reviewer isn't going to know what I know or don't know, except where obvious technical flaws show up my lack of expertise. Hence a critique that goes into detail about interpretation is most likely to be helpful; there is bound to be something there I haven't seen. Reply

From mauro1/Mauro (11,510) on July 15, 2008 8:00:54 AM CDT I agree. One of the most useful things a critic can bring to another photographers work is a fresh pair of eyes. Cheers, Mauro. Reply

From sigmamagic/Renee (102) on March 11, 2009 6:04:20 PM CDT Mauro, I totaly agree _ If my image reaches someone on the emotional level then I've gotten the shot - the tech stuff - Helps me to improve it - BUT - Nice shot - great shot - congrats - & all of those false comments, do nothing for me - I post images sometimes that I know need to be sharper - and yet no one catches it - or - I could have exposed differently for a better shot - But we get what we get It depends on who's in here the day your image posts and once it does - it's gone and lost in the piles of photos from days gone by So, if you visit my images, Please be honest and tell me how to improve it - that's what will make us all better photographers - It's not just a place to post photos for everyone to see thats why I joined - great point whoever started it reneez Reply

From yellowgrey/Barbro (15,841) on March 12, 2009 5:13:03 AM CDT hej! I appreciate when critiques 'feels' honest and written by heart. Critiques as point at improvements are useful to know, such as how to use levels. Or suggestion to use frame which made me investigate Gimp. Dislike: when critiques are written in haste and stress. Reply

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